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Snowblind Studios > Champions: Return to Arms General Discussion

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Brendon



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 33
Make Character Classes Unique  Reply with quote  

I've been pushing this for awhile now, and hopefully it doesn't fall upon deaf ears, but I've noticed that the character classes in CoN -- even the new ones -- are just a small variation of an existing class.

The Vah-Sir for example, seem like nothing more than Barbarians who can throw axes. They look cool yes, but they have yet to really become something different in ability. Hopefully I'm wrong on this, but we've seen it in CoN. The Iskar seems to have a nice combination of both light and dark magic, but hopefully all the spells are different instead of making every damned spell an elemental again. The Wizard is already at that point.

The Ranger is nothing more than a weaker fighter, who can shoot arrows (which most of the other classes can do anyway). I think Rangers should have access to wildlife pets (and not just some temporary charm spell), and should be able to track and make armor from the skin of killed creatures.

The poor cleric is one of the worst. They can only use blunt weapons, and ranged weapons are all bladed, making so they can't even use anything ranged. On top of that, the majority of their spells are just temporary buffs, which as most players would agree, totally suck because you constantly have to keep tabs on your spell. In the end, the clerics are robbed barbarians at best, because their magical abilities are weak and their combat abilities are limited. Even their "pet" spell is a very temporary spell. The thing can't just stick around until it "dies"?

Please cut the poor clerics a break....
Post Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:25 am
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Shifty Geezer



Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 215
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Where I agree with you wholeheartedly on the need for character diversity, I have to speak up in favour of Clerics. People have said Clerics and SK are the weakest characters but that's just not true of Clerics.

I started a level Cleric on Courageous mode and without tooo much trouble progressed through the first levels. Now on Act 3 at level 29 I have to say the Celric is very powerful. Blinding Light is pretty awesome. It does enough damage to kill any enemy thus far met with one shot. It's a 'fire and forget' solution. It shoots through walls and works on different heights. The enemy too are not only slowly killed but also incapacitated. Blinding Light is like FrostStorm come Engulfing Darkness and is very powerful.

The Divine Hammer lasts up to a minute when maxxed, and quickly gains duration, though it does start as too short-lived and feeble (though essential when starting in Courageous!!). It's also stupid so that when you're blocking an enemy, the Hammer stops doing anything instead of rushing to your aid. At the very least it could carry on bashing whoever it was bashing before you block.

I use three spells, Bless, Hammer and BLight. Enter a level, Bless and Hammer and switch BLight to Triangle. Every now and then I have to switch back to re-Bless, which wouldn't be good in multiplayer, but otherwise it works okay and actually makes use of the Spell Slots.

My only beef with the Cleric is, apart from the limited weaponry which doesn't much matter, the huge degree of redundancy in spells. Half of them are given over to Undead bashing and such spells aren't as effective as BLight anyway. eg. Dismiss Undead - I was disappointed to see it strikes once and that's it. Consuming lots of mana and with a long delay before another spell can be fired, it just isn't worth it. However, all characters tend to be played with only a couple of spells/feats actually used so the Cleric is no worse off in this way.

Um, but back to what Brendon was saying, more variety please! (Brendon: Do you think if we keep saying it over and over we'll grind them into submission? Twisted Evil )

Shifty Geezer
...
Post Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:23 am
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Liggur



Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 85
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Did you start your cleric as level 1 on Couragous?

I agree that the melee classes are a bit too similar.

Dual wield needs fixing.
The L1 button needs a function for casters - it toggles between missile/melee for fighters - like access to more spells (or pet commands)
Drops less random, and more tuned to the level of your characters.
"Prune" the skill tree. get rid or fix the dead skills.

The resists to work, in Adventurous I loaded my SK with 107% poison resists, and didnt get poisoned once in the spider caves under kelethin.

I disagree with Brendan about the cleric. It has always been the way that clerics can only use blunt weapons. I see no problem with this at all. As for the effectiveness of the skills, my cleric is only 22 and I have not used them all yet. currently maxxed out the nuke and got 14 in heal with a few others in endurance.
Post Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:22 pm
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Shifty Geezer



Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 215
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quote:
Originally posted by Liggur
Did you start your cleric as level 1 on Couragous?


Yes. I've played four characters to completion of Courageous. SK and Mage were from Adventurous, and Ranger and Cleric were started as level 1's n Courageous. I actually think that makes for better gameplay. Things are pretty desperate in those first levels and the large leaps in character level provide useful feats early on, instead of the small advance in Adventurous that means most spells are too effective to bother with.

Now I've maxxed Hammer and 'Nuke', and Bless, I'm not sure what else to level up on my Cleric. Convert Enemy sounds fun but probably isn't much use except when enemies are grouped. Shield Bash again is only good against a close knit mob. Root seems fairly redundant with BLight. Iguess I'll max out Turn Undead because you can't have a Cleric without it, and Blunt weapons of course.

Though you're right about Clerics traditionally using Blunt weapons, does this need to be adhered to? I do find the Cleric's weapons options very limited. And the premise that it's becuase they can't spill blood is nosense. If you whack some goblin in the head with a big hammer, it's gonna bleed!! Having no ranged weapons at all seems to plave Clerics at a disadvantage, though as I said I've had absolutely no trouble thanks to BLight.

Shifty Geezer
...
Post Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:12 pm
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Liggur



Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 85
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quote:
Originally posted by Shifty Geezer
quote:
Originally posted by Liggur
Did you start your cleric as level 1 on Couragous?
..snip..
Though you're right about Clerics traditionally using Blunt weapons, does this need to be adhered to?

Shifty Geezer
...


Yes it does, otherwise they are no longer clerics.

quote:
Originally posted by Shifty Geezer
And the premise that it's becuase they can't spill blood is nosense. If you whack some goblin in the head with a big hammer, it's gonna bleed!!


Aparently its not just with "spilling blood", but has something to do with not using bladed or cutting weapons, at a religious level. I vaguly remember reading a story in an AD&D novel that explained it.
Post Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:22 pm
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Banshee



Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Kansas
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I really like CoN. To be honest, I was a little disappointed, but mostly because I was expecting something a little more like Everquest and a little less like Dark Alliance. Of course at that time I didn't know Black Isle had gone under. (And I'm praying I'm not getting the name messed up Confused )

I've played an Adventurous game using all of the characters, and I'm afraid I don't care much for the cleric. I see where you're coming from about not using swords and axes and such, but couldn't we at least use a staff or something? I mean it is soooo hard to find a decent weapon that the Cleric can actually use. The spells aren't too bad, but it'd be nice if the hammer lasted until it died. One question: isn't the purpose of a cleric to keep comrades alive? Not just themselves? I wa a little annoyed that I can only heal myself until I've upgraded my spell; and even then I can only heal my partner when they're within a certain aura.

As far as the Ranger goes, yea, that would be so awesome if they could have wildlife pets. That would totally kick 'tail'. Rolling Eyes (Sorry...it's a good night for bad jokes for me)

Shadowknights are my favorites so far. They can use pretty much every weapon and I love using the poison spells.

What I think CoN could use is more character development. More stories behind the characters. I mean, what's a dark elf doing in woodland country anyway? Dark elves and light eleves hate each other. And aren't a lot of our enemies dark elves? So why these two? What makes them different? See what I mean?

Why do I ask so many questions? Question Question
Post Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:32 am
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Brendon



Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 33
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My complaint isn't that clerics use blunt weapoins, it's that they have weak magical powers and no ranged weaponry ON TOP of not being able to use bladed weapons. The entire weapons selection is very limited to the cleric, and where their magic could make up for it is very weak. One or two powerful spells isn't near enough. It makes the character not very fun to play.

Give them some blunt ranged weapons, and make their magical spells meatier (not just weak party buffs).

And just to note, EQ isn't related to AD&D, so actually, the powers of clerics of both worlds are different, especially considering all of AD&D's sub-classes.
Post Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:07 am
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Shifty Geezer



Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 215
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quote:
Originally posted by Banshee
The spells aren't too bad, but it'd be nice if the hammer lasted until it died.

I think the Hammer works out okay. Unlike the skeleton pet, the enemy can't hit the hammer, or do anything to rid themselves of it. If it wasn't on a time limit it would be around forever. May as well just make it a constant companion that doesn't need summoning.

With the hammer's time limit, mostly you just have to Zap in it every so often, but sometimes you find it disappears at inopportune moments and end up running from the enemy as you summon it, which adds a little more gameplay and things to worry about than always having it there.

Shifty Geezer
...
Post Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:00 am
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